Two years ago, I asked myself a question that changed the way I approached my college education. Before my sophomore year, a time when I needed to get my grades up to avoid going to community college and then keep them up to get into my program, I asked myself, “Do grades matter?”
Awful timing, I know.
This wasn’t a question of if a college degree matters. That’s circumstantial, and with my family’s past, me earning a college degree matters. Yes, that makes my college degree more like a commodity, but dropping out is not an option.
What’s the ROI on good grades?
Earning stellar marks, like anything else in life, is an investment of time and energy. The first issue I had to confront was whether or not achieving a 4.0, or something close, was worth the investment of time and energy. Lifestyle experimenter Tim Ferriss processed a similar decision when deciding to get his real-world MBA, instead of a Stanford MBA. His was more of a monetary investment, but the thought process he used is similar to mine – option A, or what you’re “supposed” to do, or option B, which is whatever you make it.
Ultimately I decided that it wasn’t worth the time, energy or stress involved.
I’ve never been a 4.0 student, so why start now? The return-on-investment (ROI) of a 4.0 did not match the ROI of other things I could be doing with my time or energy, such as enjoying my life. Some people get their jollies from good grades, and that’s fine, but I get my jollies elsewhere.
And nothing is worth the near-heart attack levels of stress I see other students endure every few weeks. Never have I been one to get overly stressed out, and I wasn’t about to start at the age of 19. If I die now, it certainly won’t be over a Reality of God midterm.
Although the professor would have to pass me – I’d certainly know the answer.
From an ROI perspective, there are times when I’m okay with settling for a B on an exam. School has never been my number one priority, and I have to deal with the consequences of emphasizing work, organizations and occasionally having a social life over academics. If I didn’t put in the time and effort necessary for an A, I don’t deserve it.
That’s simple economics and I’ll never understand why people get angered at professors when they clearly didn’t invest enough effort to get an A.
Straight from the horse’s mouth
Next I searched for confirmation from those who knew best: the people I would be asking for jobs from in about three years. The overall response was, “no, just don’t be a dumbass.”
Fair enough. I think I can handle that.
I was instructed to attend classes, pay attention and learn things, but to worry more about applying them to projects, work and organizations than to tests and papers. The best response came from an AE at a mid-size advertising agency –
Me: “What’s the difference between a student graduating with a 3.2 GPA and a 3.8 GPA?”
AE: “Someone who puts their GPA on their résumé and someone who uses that space to tell us what they’ve actually accomplished.”
With that, the apathetic academic cake was iced. My education wasn’t over, but any concern about my GPA, as long as it kept me in my program, was out the door.
I had my answer: grades don’t matter… for the most part
How can you drop the stress of a high GPA while maintaining a high level of learning? What are the pros and cons? Check out part 2, where I share my strategy and what I’ve learned from it.
Do, or did, your grades matter? How do you prioritize high marks and are they, or were they, worth the investment you put into getting them?
On a second note, I do look forward to the second part of the squeal.
I think Colby’s argument was the difference between working towards a 3.0+ GPA versus a 4.0+ GPA. As a recent college graduate in electrical engineering with nearly 4.0 GPA, from my experience, I wasn’t as naturally talented as those people who managed to get 4.0 GPA, captain the american football team, dance every night, pledge a fraternity, and help habitat for humanity on the weekends. Granted, I got myself into too many obligations that I should’ve been committed, but basically the net result of such demanding work ethic for me was giving up social, family, and self-nourishment time to the point of minimal social life, severed family relationships, and flood of illnesses. Sure, you have to think about why you need a certain GPA (if you need to get into graduate/professional school to become a professor, doctor, lawyer, etc.), but you also have to think about if you’re going to enjoy the grinds of those careers. The tradeoffs for the supposedly desired end result were too much for me as they bited me when I tried to find helpful internship placements at some prominent places (but fell short in any attempt). I am grateful for certain extent as I eventually managed to run into the mechanisms of Untemplater and 4-hour-workweek lifestyle. Most of them put in hard work (although not to the point of giving up their health, relationships, and sanity) in the beginning, and then making sure that whatever they do is scalable by being able to remove themselves out of the equation in the long-run decision making process.
I think the possible rewards of the 4.0 GPA would be iffy future job opportunities at best (assuming if you’re hired in companies like Google, although they wouldn’t want total nerds with their social skills sacrificed). I found many things in courses that I have taken in courses do not get applied in real life, despite giving up social life, family time, health, and potential side-project/entrepreneurship opportunities to be a slave of getting grades. I think employers look at grades to get a sense of the willingness (or obedience/compliance) of the candidate to continue working like a slave for the management and company’s profit until they burn out.
I hope I have defended arguments from both sides. On a side note, from reading Tim Ferriss’s book, I do get a sense of him knowing how to get good grades from his techniques of grilling graders whenever he got less than desirable grades. However, he also pointed out that he almost didn’t finish college at Princeton. I think grades as a criteria for many employment opportunities are retarded in general as it’s a poor indicator of on-the-job performance.
Great points and thanks for the comment.
On the last one, it’s important for any student to be able to approach a professor or TA and intelligently debate a grade on a paper, essay or the legitimacy of an exam question. I can’t even count how many times I’ve done this and improved my grade, and usually the grade of my classmates, because of it.
Just make sure you do it intelligently and respectfully. No one wants to be told their test question sucks. But if you can show them where it is weak, confusing or misleading, that’s where you can get points back.
I graduated high school with a 3.88 GPA because high school, even most of the honors classes, were so easy that I got A’s and high B’s without studying. I was completely unprepared for the rigors of college. My grades really suffered and I lost my scholarships, about $11k overall.
Since then, there have been positions in which I was interested but required a certain level of academic achievement or experience (this seems to be common of entry level federal positions) and I had neither.
Completely agree with ya man. I had a 3.8 in college and then I got hired into a great position and no one even looked at my resume. I think grades can give you an idea of how hard of a worker someone can be, but by no means are they a complete picture.
Exactly. Some people choose to rely on their grades, and that’s fine. However, I chose to rely on showing my ability and drive elsewhere.
I love seeing the discussion here!
As a college student, I have never questioned how hard I should strive to achieve a high GPA. Perhaps this is because I threw out all hopes of retaining a personal life during college semesters; perhaps this is because I do not attend a party school; perhaps this is because I need the grades to receive scholarships; or perhaps this is because I found a school that believes in helping students learn,rather than simply raising money. I find that 3.8 – 4.0 GPA’s come fairly easily to me, so I try to earn the highest score possible.
I agree with Colby, however, that, in certain circumstances it may be more beneficial to “slack off” in school. The determining factor in whether one should strive to achieve a 4.0 is intent. What are your intentions? Are you starting your own business while in school? Can you afford tuition without financial aid? Will you “burn out” on school if you neglect your idealistic social life? If you answered yes to ALL of the above questions, then perhaps you should cut down on study time. On the other hand: what is the purpose of attending college if you refuse to learn all you can?
I have spoken personally with several employers, and have come to the conclusion that 1) most employers do not care what your GPA was in college; and 2) no employer cares what high school you attended.
Of course, the purpose of this site is to help people achieve location independence, and I, for one, do not intend to work for “the man” during the remainder of my life. That said, screw 4.0’s, and screw the educational system (although I fully intend to graduate college with no less than a 3.8.)
Thanks Colby for a thought-provoking article!
Thanks for your comment. For myself, I find a mid-3 GPA comes easily (barring some of the questionable life decisions I made freshman year). Could I put in the extra time for that 4.0? Probably. Could that time be utilized more effectively elsewhere? Definitely.
Also, who says learning only happens in the classroom? I learned the most last semester when I skipped a week of class to attend conferences in STL and NYC (thanks to my job for one and my school for the other). I’m always learning from professors who I’ve never even taking a class under.
There are a lot of things that have to factor into the decision to focus less on grades and more elsewhere. It’s a very personal decision. The problem is, we grow up in a school system where society expects us to have the best GPA possible, and in my opinion, puts way more value on a high GPA than the ‘real world’ does.
That’s why this is an Untemplater post. It’s here to encourage people to take a look at what they’re doing and if they could or should be doing it differently.
I read this site often, and I am pretty shocked the guys let this through.
No offence, Colby, but this is terrible advice.
Concerning your Tim Ferris reference, Ferris is a brilliant entrepreneur that put in incredible hard work BEFORE he started taking it easy. He had the opportunity to go to Stanford, but chose to finance his own “personal” mba. The key word in my previous sentence is “opportunity”. Your 19 year old self has no idea what your 25 year old self will want to do, trust me. If you do not give yourself the opportunity to be able to make a choice, you really will regret it. As will many impressionable college kids reading these posts.
Lifestyle design, untemplating, getting rich, and the four hour work week all have a common tread – incredibly hard working and focused people. You go to college to learn new things, experience new experiences, and set yourself up for a fruitful and enlightened future. Earning good grades is as important for a student as winning cases is for a trial lawyer; if either of you cannot do it, why are you even bothering to keep it up?
In addition, you are ignoring the needs of professionals: doctors, lawyers, dentists, pharmacists, researchers, MBAs, and the rest. Grades are very important for people that want to go to graduate school. While you are right to point out that other things matter, if doing well in school is such a demanding task, perhaps you SHOULD go to community college for a while to gain some experience and work ethic. Surely there are students that score good grades, captain the american football team, dance every night, pledge a fraternity, and help habitat for humanity on the weekends.
Please don’t give this kind of advice unless you point out the opportunity loss associated with such actions.
CG
ps Sorry for being aggressive, but I sometimes help students in Bangkok, KL, and Singapore get into US Universities and I know the amount of work they put in to have the opportunity of an American education. It’s pretty depressing to see Americans so willing to give up such a gift – especially in a world that demands excellence.
Craig, I have to agree with you here. In my comment above, I was trying to write in a less aggressive way, but you come out and say it well.
It’s too bad Colby is unresponsive to the comments here after his post. Doesn’t make me or others want to comment if the poster isn’t going to respond.
Maybe Colby just wants to just chill? Not a bad life just chilling right?
Sam –
C’est la vie, right? Taking it easy is not such a bad thing. But it is pretty bad advice.
Let’s wait for his 2nd installment – maybe he clears the air.
CG
Fin,
Apologies, my comments were awaiting moderation.
I did enjoy a fairly relaxing and “chill” weekend with some friends and family. Beginning today, my life gets chaotic up until senior year begins, and then it just gets crazier.
Thanks for asking about my weekend. I hope you enjoyed yours.
It still perplexes me why you wouldn’t want to have great grades. Why limit yourself? Get good grades and experience and learn things outside the classroom. Good grades aren’t mutually exclusive to outside activities!
I agree. While I don’t think grades are everything (hell, I’m still 12 years going without finishing college, and some of my grades are absolutely dismal) I think the effort should still be there. The same effort that it takes to forgo a night of partying with friends to study and get homework done is the same effort you’ll have to put forth when there is a presentation due the next day.
You’re right, good grades aren’t mutually exclusive with outside activities. I manage to pull off what many consider ‘good’ grades (mid-3.0) while engaging in plenty of outside activities. For me, the difference is the effort it would take to pull my GPA from good to great.
A mid-3.0 GPA comes fairly naturally for me. Save for a few bad life decisions during freshman year, I’ve never had a problem with “good grades.” But was it worth it to put in the extra effort towards great grades when I could be putting that extra effort elsewhere? Towards ends which I find more valuable investments of my time and efforts?
My answer was “yes.”
My friend and I chose to take the two most difficult required journalism courses, Communications Law and History of American Journalism, in the first 4-week session of summer. This meant we were in class for 4 hours/day, 5 days/week. On top of this, we had at least 2, maybe 4, hours of reading every night. Each class had two exams, at the end of the 2nd and 4th weeks, and those exams would be 100% of our grade for the course.
Going into these classes, my friend had a 4.0. Perfect student. Obviously, he went in wanting As, where I went in thinking I’d be happy with Bs.
He read everything thoroughly, studied for each test every day, took painstakingly lengthy notes in class. He had no free time to enjoy summer, the World Cup, pick up a job, etc.
I took a different route. I didn’t read things unless I didn’t understand the concepts. I watched CNN for two hours every morning while working so I could relate historical concepts to present events, something I knew our professor loved. I kept up with my job, worked on a few side projects, enjoyed the World Cup and lazy Sundays by a pool.
I ended up with a B+ and a B. He ended up with an A- and a C.
Clearly, he was devastated/pissed/stressed/etc about losing his 4.0. He’s even considering taking the class again, which would mean taking 18 hours at some point senior year or taking one class next summer. All in the name of a 4.0.
It’s true, he probably has a better understanding of how muckraking journalism found roots. But I know I have a conversational understanding, and I don’t think I’ll need to know more than that. Instead, I chose to get ahead in design skill, small business marketing strategy, photography, etc. In the long run, I believe those will be more helpful to me than being able to recite the history of privacy torts.
No offense taken, Craig. You’re entitled to your opinion and it’s very well articulated, which I can respect.
Concerning your Ferris point, I have no idea what his college GPA was. Do you? (Not meant to be sarcasm, but a real question. In one of my above replies, I suggest a study of the college GPAs of the C-Suite members of Fourtune 500 companies. I think it would really shed light on the topic.) You’re right, I might think I know what I want to do, but I really have no idea. But instead of sitting around in classes that focus on one or two areas, I’m spreading myself across different organizations, projects and jobs so I’m developing a broad set of skills (not trying to get into the master vs jack of all trades argument, that’s for another day).
Does an incredibly hard working and focused person need to focus their time and energy on grades? Some certainly do. As I mention, I know I need to maintain a certain GPA to remain in my sequence. If my goal were law school, there’s a certain GPA I would need to keep that goal alive. It is very circumstantial, and I don’t deny that. It was my fault for not articulating this point better in my post.
And I understand the gift we have in America. But I also understand how the classroom is falling behind (something I fight hard with administration to improve). As you’ll see in my next post, I still highly recommend using the great resources available to us, but in different ways.
Thanks for your very thought-provoking comment.
Definition – something that establishes or serves as a pattern.
I thought Untemplater was looking beyond the “highest” paying jobs in the world. Yes, 99% of the time those jobs are unattainable unless you follow a rigid path, including the guise of “good grades” as a determinant of anything except you test well and can recite rote info.
Yet, when global recessions wipe out those comfortable, stable highest paying jobs, many people are left trying to figure out, “How do I create a sustainable, fulfilling, well-paying career outside the four-walls of a global corporation.”
It’s not a problem to not want a high paying job. It’s only a problem when you only get a “B” average and start whining to others why you think you deserve the best paying job. That’s all.
Most people aren’t A students, and hence, most people can’t get all the best job, pay, accolades, entry in universities whatever. It is what it is.
Jeff, thanks for the comment. Although, I think it would be an interesting study to gather the college GPA of C-Suite employees at Fortune 500 companies. I think the collective GPA of that group would really shed light on the issue.
Fin, I’m not trying to whine and I’m not supporting those who believe they’re entitled to a high paying job just because they graduated from University X. One still has to put in the effort to get the gig, but the difference and debate is where that effort should be placed to maximize life’s potential.
The majority of people who will agree with you Colby are those with mediocre grades, or those who couldn’t get straight A’s.
For many of the most competitive, and highest paying jobs in the world, grades absolutely do matter.
The real quesiton is, “Do “C” Students Deserve “A” Lifestyles?” That’s an article I wrote with the strong thesis saying NO. This is the problem with the world. So many people think they deserve something even though they haven’t put the hard work to get it!
Best,
Sam
Agree 100%!
Who is to say that grades are the most competent reflection of one’s abilities, intelligence or competitiveness? I know plenty of people who excel in those areas that don’t score high marks because they aren’t good at filling in one of four possible bubbles.
It all depends on your end goal. If you are into the digital or entrepreneur space, creativity and work ethic supersede, and grades aren’t necessarily important because it’s about what you do.
In my line of work (management consulting) pedigree and grades are everything. This is particularly true if you want to get into the MC big boys (Bain, BCG, McKinsey). But unless you have an MBA from a top 10 program, you are most likely going to hit a ceiling that is nearly impossible to break through. So, in order to reach those levels, you have to get accepted to a top 10 program, which means you have to make good grades as an undergrad.
I guess my nutshell explanation is that just like everything, it depends.
Thanks for the comments, Scott.
You have a good point about the difference between industries. Admittedly, where I’m heading with my career has a much different culture than where my friends majoring in finance are heading.
However, I think it’s unfair to say that I’m settling for mediocrity during my college experience. Whereas my friends majoring in finance are striving to excel in the classroom, I’m striving to excel outside of it. I’m not settling for mediocrity, I’m emphasizing what I believe is helping me improve.
I completely agree with this post. If I remember correctly, I ended college with a 2.8 GPA, but it’s never hampered me professionally.
However, I will point out if any of your readers dream of working for Google, they should ignore your advice. Surprisingly, given Google’s acumen about many things, they are totally and completely blinded by their belief in standardized intelligence tests and GPAs. Both are complete failures in determining future success.
The reason Google requires a good GPA to work there has nothing to do with smarts, but everything to do with bringing on people with the right kind of focus and work ethic. It’s all about culture. Look, a lot of companies like Google were built, and are now run, buy a group of overachievers – people who have always been at the top of their game. These are people who have rarely slacked off on anything in their lives. They study hard, work hard, and play hard; and they don’t want to surround themselves by anybody who can’t hang with them.
It’s not just a smarts issue, but a work ethic, focus, competitive spirit, and pride thing. That’s how I view college grades. Sure I could have slacked off during school, but I had/have too much pride in myself to settle for anything less than my absolute best – which in college meant getting A’s. And I find it disingenuous that anybody who plans to dominate the world would settle for mediocrity during their college experience.
I just wanted to point out the irony that I have a glaring typo in the first paragraph. Hah!
Wow. Interesting fact about Google. I haven’t heard that before, and it definitely seems to be against their public image.
Thanks for sharing.